Contrapuntal writing teaches pianists to use logical fingerings and use them consistently. His music is an essential study in the use and manner of articulation-- a creative and aural skill all good pianists should have. Good interpretation of his works requires knowledge of harmonic structure (remember that the brand of western music theory we all study is derived largely from Bach’s time, not to mention his own teachings).

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True, but he seldom deliberately calls for things that sound lame

Apparently, Czerny thought it was to be played gliss. But there is also evidence to suggest that playing it in octaves is correct. Tovey argued that gliss octaves were actually more difficult on period pianos than on later instruments. Backhaus doesn’t play it gliss and his teachers form a direct line back to Beethovcen. It is an interesting study. My preference, though, is to try to stay in character.

Ryan

[Devil’s advocate]
Well, we can all trace our pianistic heritage back to Beethoven one way or another - the main links being Liszt and Leschetizky, of course. Granted, the Liszt pupils tended to do more concertizing than the Leschetizky side (d’Albert, Friedman, Sauer), but he produced some significant pedagogues from his studio (Vianna da Motta being the foremost).
[/Devil’s advocate]

I must say that I am surprised by some of the views presented here. I just can’t see how a pianist’s inability to realize what Beethoven wrote can be taken as proof that the conception is flawed. I think that the glissandi sound wonderful in context of what comes right before it. The texture is thinned out in number of notes and dynamic, and the harmonic rhythm slows - the general effect is a transition from a soundscape based on attack to one that based on touch and nuance (followed by the retransition to attack). The sonic impression is simply beautiful.

I know a pianist who can barely manage a ninth and is able to execute the octaves as glissandi. If you can curl the tip of your thumb inward towards the hand, then it’s not so difficult to execute. The difficult part is playing it pianissimo, of course.

Beethoven was always trying to make musicians reach beyond their technical and musical capabilities, and if one succumbs to their limitations, then the idea and the effect are both lost. He didn’t care how difficult it was; the music was the most important thing.


Brendan, I am not sure I understand what you are implying when you say that I ”don’t grasp what Beethoven wrote and I use that as proof that the concept is flawed”. Are you talking about execution? If so, I don’t find the octave gliss to be impossible to play, even PP. What I find difficult is playing them gliss in the same character as the following scales without losing control of the pulse and rhythmic drive (i.e. 2/2 pulse with emphasis on 1). I feel that gliss octaves tends to drop the energy level more than I want.

I really think the octaves are part of the scales that follow, even more than part of the triplets that came before. The octaves plus scales are a transitional device to get from the triplet idea to the subsiquent trill-over-triplet idea. Playing the octaves non-gliss helps me connect them to the following scales in character and articulation. If I were to play the octaves gliss then I would have to play the following scales gliss as well in order to preserve the character. And I am not willing to do that.

Other than acting as a transitioning device, I don’t think the octaves have any other special function and I don’t believe they deserve any kind of special treatment, nor do the triplets that preceed it. Certainly they are interesting and beautiful, but they are brief and to over dramatize them or make them sound too different from what surrounds them is to risk fragmenting the coda. And just because the softer portions of the triplet passage are marked PP doesn’t mean that they aren’t still be ”attack” oriented, having a similar rhythmic drive, energy, and direction as the first part of the triplet passage. After all, it is the same idea that Beethoven has been developing for many measures - no new material here. This idea doesn’t end until it cadences at the entrance of the transition, i.e. the octaves. I really think you have to push through to this point and enter the transition without too much fuss. Now the trill-over-triplet IS a new idea, which really does deserve a different treatment.

I have wandered far off the topic of the gliss octaves, but I think you have to consider the octaves in the context of the entire coda. Finding the right balance between the individual passages of the coda vs. the overall effect of the coda, third movement, and sonata has not been easy. In fact, I am still pondering some of my ideas. Even worse, I rewrote this post at 4:00 this morning, so it probably doesn’t make a bit of sense. I will probably read it later today and wonder what the heck I was trying to say!

Ryan

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